Lee Charles Kelley is still going at it with his latest blog post, Three Forms of Dog Training.
Most people think there are only two types of training for pet dogs, dominance training and positive reinforcement. But there is actually a third form called drive training, which is far more effective than the other two.
In the current dog training marketplace drive training is the least understood and the least used with pet dogs, and yet it’s the most effective of the three. Plus it’s the method most often used to train working dogs: drug and bomb detection dogs, search-and-rescue dogs, military dogs, and police dogs.
So what is drive training, exactly, how does it work, and why isn’t it being more widely used for training pet dogs?
Before we get into that, let’s take a look at how all three methods evolved.
[read on...]
Then, in 1992 a new form of drive training was developed based on the laws of physics rather than the unscientific concepts of dominance or the somewhat semi-science of operant conditioning. This new method was created by former police and drug-enforcement dog trainer Kevin Behan.* His model—which he called Natural Dog Training—was based on the principles of flow and thermodynamics (among other things). In other words, it was based on physics.
[hmm...]
Showing posts with label natural. Show all posts
Showing posts with label natural. Show all posts
Saturday, March 28, 2020
Saturday, February 20, 2010
how to walk WITH your dog
Note the emphasis on WITH (as opposed to..)
A staple of any relationship that you share with a canine companion is “the walk”. Walking is a time for you and your dog to be on the hunt together, taking in the smells of the neighborhood (or park, or woods, or wherever) and enjoying your experience of the world in all its stimulating-your-emotions glory. Yet for many of us, walking with our dogs is a struggle of excess: too much stopping when we want to go, too much going when we want to stop, too much jumping on people, too much pulling, etc. The nerve of our dogs, having their own agenda when we’re out trying to get some walking done! In this article we’re going to talk about how to cure the struggle, which is actually simpler than you might think – because it’s all about your focus and expectations when you’re walking together.
The best way to walk with your dog boils down to these three steps:
Focus.
Play and Train.
Occasionally manage.
-- from Neil Sattin
A staple of any relationship that you share with a canine companion is “the walk”. Walking is a time for you and your dog to be on the hunt together, taking in the smells of the neighborhood (or park, or woods, or wherever) and enjoying your experience of the world in all its stimulating-your-emotions glory. Yet for many of us, walking with our dogs is a struggle of excess: too much stopping when we want to go, too much going when we want to stop, too much jumping on people, too much pulling, etc. The nerve of our dogs, having their own agenda when we’re out trying to get some walking done! In this article we’re going to talk about how to cure the struggle, which is actually simpler than you might think – because it’s all about your focus and expectations when you’re walking together.
The best way to walk with your dog boils down to these three steps:
Focus.
Play and Train.
Occasionally manage.
-- from Neil Sattin
Thursday, September 3, 2009
Neil Sattin's DVD (and Kevin's book)
The DVD arrived on Tuesday and it was still in shrinkwrap. The person who I bought it from must have received it as a gift or bought and no longer had any use for it. I dunno.
Anyway, I looked at first disk early Thursday morning. Neil seems like a nice mild-mannered fellow. Not an alpha type. So maybe that's why he was attracted to NDT. And maybe there's hope, because I'm not an alpha type either. Though I get the impression the LCK is an alpha type (NTTAWWT of course).
I had told Sue that I ordered a new dog training video and she said that's good because sometimes it's hard to picture what to do just by reading the book. And sure enough, I think she's right. The demonstration of how to push comes across much clearer when you see how it's done. And Neil's demonstration of prey vs. predator movement would be hard to convey by reading from a book.
Anyway, I tried some pushing Thursday morning. Kimo doesn't really push though. As soon as his chest touches the hand without the food, he tends to stop. Even when I have his favorite treat, chicken jerky. Other times, he comes then stops to sit before reaching the hand, because that's what I've trained him to do. To sit before I give him the food. Maybe that's why LCK doesn't like NILIF?
In the afternoon, he was barking and I had him come for food. I'm trying to get the hang of pushing. And I was moving my hand away and backing up as he came for the food. That seemed to work. Also I was touching the side of his chest, though not really pushing, as he took the food.
It might have been my imagination, but he seemed to be barking a little less intensely. Until the UPS truck came at least.
He was barking at the fence. And it was harder to get him to come. But after the truck drove off he was in a somewhat excited state. And I started to get him to chase me which led to him running back and forth for a while.
After that he seemed calm and lay down on the grass.
Well, we'll see how this goes.
[Thursday, 9/3, posted 9/4]
***
Well, weeks later, I have pretty much given up on pushing with Kimo as I seemed to make little progress in the first several attempts. However, what I do is present him with little strips of chicken jerky and let him pull it out of my hand. I figure that's sort of tug of war, but more like for real. If that's why dogs tug. He doesn't really tug much with toys either.
Anyway, I'm now slowly making my way through Behan's book [bought used on ebay, the original edition, I assume it's the same as later editions]. It's written much more clearly than I anticipated. Apparently his wife helped him in the clarity part as it is much less obscure (am I using the right word?) than his blog posts. Trying to keep an open mind since it is not a widely-accepted theory. Then again, he has experience with lots of dogs. And if it works, it works. [9/27 a.m.]
[6/12/10] As I continue to slowly go through the book, I'm struggling. Kevin uses unfamiliar terms, terms that he just made up to explain what he's thinking. I guess I kind of understand what he's trying to say, but my problem is trying to understand exactly what every word in his sentences mean. Plus Kevin is a terrible writer, using his unfamiliar terminology and really long run-on sentences (and more thoughts in parentheses in an apparent attempt to clarify what he just said). It would help if Kevin used an editor (provided the editor is not also from outer space).
I think once I get past the chapters on theory (of which I think is questionable -- but that doesn't really matter) and get to the actual training, it should get clearer.
***
Here's a review of Neil's DVD and Neil's response to the review. The reviewers seem pretty-informed and are of the positive school (which seems to be the accepted approach these days). Oops, actually it's Kevin's response, not Neil's. The comments following the review are interesting with input from Kevin, LCK, and Trisha (apparently the big four, along with Neil, of the NDT universe). [9/27am]
***
[6/12/10 via naturaldog on twitter] That Mutt blog (Lindsay Stordahl - who seems like a very nice person by the way she writes) relates her experiences on using pushing with her dog, Ace. She's having better success with Ace than I am with Kimo. The idea of taking the dog's breakfast with you on the morning walk sounds interesting. Maybe I might try that. Or maybe just remember to bring the treats cause Kimo's really not that attracted to his regular kibble.
Kimo went wild again when he saw Miki and Shammy coming down the street. If I could get him to push (or play tug) [instead of just holding him] when that occurs, I can see where that would have been helpful.
Anyway, I looked at first disk early Thursday morning. Neil seems like a nice mild-mannered fellow. Not an alpha type. So maybe that's why he was attracted to NDT. And maybe there's hope, because I'm not an alpha type either. Though I get the impression the LCK is an alpha type (NTTAWWT of course).
I had told Sue that I ordered a new dog training video and she said that's good because sometimes it's hard to picture what to do just by reading the book. And sure enough, I think she's right. The demonstration of how to push comes across much clearer when you see how it's done. And Neil's demonstration of prey vs. predator movement would be hard to convey by reading from a book.
Anyway, I tried some pushing Thursday morning. Kimo doesn't really push though. As soon as his chest touches the hand without the food, he tends to stop. Even when I have his favorite treat, chicken jerky. Other times, he comes then stops to sit before reaching the hand, because that's what I've trained him to do. To sit before I give him the food. Maybe that's why LCK doesn't like NILIF?
In the afternoon, he was barking and I had him come for food. I'm trying to get the hang of pushing. And I was moving my hand away and backing up as he came for the food. That seemed to work. Also I was touching the side of his chest, though not really pushing, as he took the food.
It might have been my imagination, but he seemed to be barking a little less intensely. Until the UPS truck came at least.
He was barking at the fence. And it was harder to get him to come. But after the truck drove off he was in a somewhat excited state. And I started to get him to chase me which led to him running back and forth for a while.
After that he seemed calm and lay down on the grass.
Well, we'll see how this goes.
[Thursday, 9/3, posted 9/4]
***
Well, weeks later, I have pretty much given up on pushing with Kimo as I seemed to make little progress in the first several attempts. However, what I do is present him with little strips of chicken jerky and let him pull it out of my hand. I figure that's sort of tug of war, but more like for real. If that's why dogs tug. He doesn't really tug much with toys either.
Anyway, I'm now slowly making my way through Behan's book [bought used on ebay, the original edition, I assume it's the same as later editions]. It's written much more clearly than I anticipated. Apparently his wife helped him in the clarity part as it is much less obscure (am I using the right word?) than his blog posts. Trying to keep an open mind since it is not a widely-accepted theory. Then again, he has experience with lots of dogs. And if it works, it works. [9/27 a.m.]
[6/12/10] As I continue to slowly go through the book, I'm struggling. Kevin uses unfamiliar terms, terms that he just made up to explain what he's thinking. I guess I kind of understand what he's trying to say, but my problem is trying to understand exactly what every word in his sentences mean. Plus Kevin is a terrible writer, using his unfamiliar terminology and really long run-on sentences (and more thoughts in parentheses in an apparent attempt to clarify what he just said). It would help if Kevin used an editor (provided the editor is not also from outer space).
I think once I get past the chapters on theory (of which I think is questionable -- but that doesn't really matter) and get to the actual training, it should get clearer.
***
Here's a review of Neil's DVD and Neil's response to the review. The reviewers seem pretty-informed and are of the positive school (which seems to be the accepted approach these days). Oops, actually it's Kevin's response, not Neil's. The comments following the review are interesting with input from Kevin, LCK, and Trisha (apparently the big four, along with Neil, of the NDT universe). [9/27am]
***
[6/12/10 via naturaldog on twitter] That Mutt blog (Lindsay Stordahl - who seems like a very nice person by the way she writes) relates her experiences on using pushing with her dog, Ace. She's having better success with Ace than I am with Kimo. The idea of taking the dog's breakfast with you on the morning walk sounds interesting. Maybe I might try that. Or maybe just remember to bring the treats cause Kimo's really not that attracted to his regular kibble.
Kimo went wild again when he saw Miki and Shammy coming down the street. If I could get him to push (or play tug) [instead of just holding him] when that occurs, I can see where that would have been helpful.
Tuesday, August 18, 2009
Neil Sattin
I thought I had written about Neil before here, but I guess not really.
Anyway, like Lee Charles Kelley, he's a follower of Kevin Behan's Natural Dog Training. Which makes him unusual since pretty much everybody else is of the alpha school or positive school (or a mix).
He has a website/blog and facebook page. Here's his profile from facebook.
My journey to the method started with my dog Nola, who had a brief history of corporal punishment from her previous owners that left her rather skittish around other humans (except me, for some reason). She pretty much wanted to kill about 4 out of 5 dogs we encountered, and she had a tendency to run off into the woods as well, leaving me to wonder if I’d ever see her again.
I attacked the problem with all of the fortitude and perseverance that a college graduate could muster. Stacks of books, tips from other dog owners, advice from trainers, and hours of time spent together. I quickly moved from my Monks-of-New-Skete approach, but no matter what I tried, I could not help her with her anxiety, or her seeming desire to hurt other dogs. At one point I had a correspondence with a well-regarded dog trainer and he thought that the solution to Nola’s aggression issues was to have her euthanized. Well, yeah, I guess that would work!
Sometime during Nola’s sixth year I decided to foster another dog, Buddy. It was back to Google for me, to try and find some solution to the problem. That was how I stumbled upon Kevin Behan’s website. Everything I read on his site made sense, not just in terms of how he explained dog behavior, but also in the way that his ideas just resonated with me on some core level. What he described was a way of tapping into a dog’s deepest instincts and seeing the world through their eyes (or, more accurately, feeling the world through their heart). Rather than looking for ways to suppress a dog’s natural energy, he spoke of channeling it into obedience behaviors. The first time I saw Nola flip from being aggressive to play bows, I knew that I had stumbled onto something amazing. I wanted to find out more. Now, years (and an apprenticeship with Kevin) later, and having witnessed many other dogs similarly affected, I can say without hesitation that Kevin’s work is truly important in the canine community.
[now I see this mostly came from his blog post, how I became a dog trainer below]
* * *
Well, I've seen Cesar and Victoria. And while I've made some progress I think, Kimo still gets wild, he still attacks, and I still get bitten (and I've been been working on him for nearly three years now). What do I have to lose?
I think I'm going to get Behan's book. I think I'll get a used one on ebay. Slightly cheaper than from Amazon. As far as I know that book hasn't changed since first being published in 1992, so I'll go for that one since it's the cheapest.
And I see Neil's DVD cheap on ebay. Well cheaper than the $65 list anyway. [Hint: it ain't there now, because I ordered it.]
Neil also has a blog at this website though it hasn't been updated frequently after the inital burst.
Like LCK's blog (or almost every blog for that matter), it doesn't have a table contents for easy lookup, so I think I'll start putting the contents here (as I read the posts).
What is this blog about?
How to play tug of war with your dog
How I became a dog trainer and people trainer
How to be calm, assertive, and relaxed -- be the moose!
How to Turn a Negative Mindset into a Positive Mindset through Acceptance, Forgiveness, and Action
OK, I'm wrong again.
Here's the listing of his blog posts.
And a neat guide to training incorporating some of those posts.
* * *
Hey that's cool. A comment from Neil himself. This is even more of an honor than when LCK send me a haiku after I added him on twitter.
I don't know why the item doesn't show up on eBay now either. Since I ordered the DVD, maybe I should now order Kevin's book. Though I'm kind of leery because I've have had a hard time deciphering Kevin's terminology on some of his recent articles. Maybe Neil can translate.
* * *
I was wondering how Neil found my blog. So I did googled Neil Sattin site:blogspot.com and found my post as the second result. The first result is an interview with Neil at Barking Buddha Doga. And I also see LCK's blog mentioning Neil several times.
* * *
[4/2/10] I see (via Twitter) that Kevin Behan has a new book coming out and that Neil recorded an 80 minute interview with Kevin.
Very interesting interview. Especially liked his anecdotes. It turned kind of metaphysical with some unfamiliar words, so was difficult for me to grasp much of it (kind of like his book). Hate to say it, but I think Kevin would come across as kind of a nutcase to the general populous, since his theory is so far out of the mainstream. Neil mentioned that the publisher of his new book is also the publisher of Deepak Chopra. So I guess that would make Kevin the Deepak Chopra of dogs.
I don't really get Deepak either. For example, "When your consciousness becomes fully grounded in that unity that transcends the conventional notions of good and bad, right and wrong, then you will find the absolute security you are seeking." WTH does that mean?? Actually I guess it somehow relates, since the premise is that dogs don't really have a concept of good or evil. Somehow...
Sheesh. All I'm trying to do is get Kimo to behave (or more accurately not misbehave).
*** [10/21/18]
saw this article about NDT via twitter. It's very readable since it's not written by Behan 8)
Anyway, like Lee Charles Kelley, he's a follower of Kevin Behan's Natural Dog Training. Which makes him unusual since pretty much everybody else is of the alpha school or positive school (or a mix).
He has a website/blog and facebook page. Here's his profile from facebook.
My journey to the method started with my dog Nola, who had a brief history of corporal punishment from her previous owners that left her rather skittish around other humans (except me, for some reason). She pretty much wanted to kill about 4 out of 5 dogs we encountered, and she had a tendency to run off into the woods as well, leaving me to wonder if I’d ever see her again.
I attacked the problem with all of the fortitude and perseverance that a college graduate could muster. Stacks of books, tips from other dog owners, advice from trainers, and hours of time spent together. I quickly moved from my Monks-of-New-Skete approach, but no matter what I tried, I could not help her with her anxiety, or her seeming desire to hurt other dogs. At one point I had a correspondence with a well-regarded dog trainer and he thought that the solution to Nola’s aggression issues was to have her euthanized. Well, yeah, I guess that would work!
Sometime during Nola’s sixth year I decided to foster another dog, Buddy. It was back to Google for me, to try and find some solution to the problem. That was how I stumbled upon Kevin Behan’s website. Everything I read on his site made sense, not just in terms of how he explained dog behavior, but also in the way that his ideas just resonated with me on some core level. What he described was a way of tapping into a dog’s deepest instincts and seeing the world through their eyes (or, more accurately, feeling the world through their heart). Rather than looking for ways to suppress a dog’s natural energy, he spoke of channeling it into obedience behaviors. The first time I saw Nola flip from being aggressive to play bows, I knew that I had stumbled onto something amazing. I wanted to find out more. Now, years (and an apprenticeship with Kevin) later, and having witnessed many other dogs similarly affected, I can say without hesitation that Kevin’s work is truly important in the canine community.
[now I see this mostly came from his blog post, how I became a dog trainer below]
* * *
Well, I've seen Cesar and Victoria. And while I've made some progress I think, Kimo still gets wild, he still attacks, and I still get bitten (and I've been been working on him for nearly three years now). What do I have to lose?
I think I'm going to get Behan's book. I think I'll get a used one on ebay. Slightly cheaper than from Amazon. As far as I know that book hasn't changed since first being published in 1992, so I'll go for that one since it's the cheapest.
And I see Neil's DVD cheap on ebay. Well cheaper than the $65 list anyway. [Hint: it ain't there now, because I ordered it.]
Neil also has a blog at this website though it hasn't been updated frequently after the inital burst.
Like LCK's blog (or almost every blog for that matter), it doesn't have a table contents for easy lookup, so I think I'll start putting the contents here (as I read the posts).
What is this blog about?
How to play tug of war with your dog
How I became a dog trainer and people trainer
How to be calm, assertive, and relaxed -- be the moose!
How to Turn a Negative Mindset into a Positive Mindset through Acceptance, Forgiveness, and Action
OK, I'm wrong again.
Here's the listing of his blog posts.
And a neat guide to training incorporating some of those posts.
* * *
Hey that's cool. A comment from Neil himself. This is even more of an honor than when LCK send me a haiku after I added him on twitter.
I don't know why the item doesn't show up on eBay now either. Since I ordered the DVD, maybe I should now order Kevin's book. Though I'm kind of leery because I've have had a hard time deciphering Kevin's terminology on some of his recent articles. Maybe Neil can translate.
* * *
I was wondering how Neil found my blog. So I did googled Neil Sattin site:blogspot.com and found my post as the second result. The first result is an interview with Neil at Barking Buddha Doga. And I also see LCK's blog mentioning Neil several times.
* * *
[4/2/10] I see (via Twitter) that Kevin Behan has a new book coming out and that Neil recorded an 80 minute interview with Kevin.
Very interesting interview. Especially liked his anecdotes. It turned kind of metaphysical with some unfamiliar words, so was difficult for me to grasp much of it (kind of like his book). Hate to say it, but I think Kevin would come across as kind of a nutcase to the general populous, since his theory is so far out of the mainstream. Neil mentioned that the publisher of his new book is also the publisher of Deepak Chopra. So I guess that would make Kevin the Deepak Chopra of dogs.
I don't really get Deepak either. For example, "When your consciousness becomes fully grounded in that unity that transcends the conventional notions of good and bad, right and wrong, then you will find the absolute security you are seeking." WTH does that mean?? Actually I guess it somehow relates, since the premise is that dogs don't really have a concept of good or evil. Somehow...
Sheesh. All I'm trying to do is get Kimo to behave (or more accurately not misbehave).
*** [10/21/18]
saw this article about NDT via twitter. It's very readable since it's not written by Behan 8)
Monday, June 22, 2009
Hershey rolls / Kimo plays?
Took Kimo and Hershey out for their morning walk. Hershey sees some poop on the yard at the lady with minpin's house. Goes up to it and starts to roll. Pull him off.
(Why do dogs roll in poop anyway?)
Then I took them to the park volleyball court. I started to run and Kimo started to run too. And went a little wild running in circles. He got excited and seemed to want to play with Hershey and hump him. Don't remember that he ever tried to do that to Hershey before. Hershey was stiff like a statue and seems scared to engage Kimo now. Can't blame him. Later Hershey went over to the fence on the side and sat down.
I tried to block Kimo from going on top of Hershey and then he started going after me nipping at my heels when I turned away.
(Why do dogs nip at your heels anyway? Herding behavior)
I think getting Kimo in that state is the first step in natural dog training. Or something like that. Just that I don't know how to do the second step in channelling that drive. Gotta read that book one day..
[Monday 6/22, posted 6/24]
(Why do dogs roll in poop anyway?)
Then I took them to the park volleyball court. I started to run and Kimo started to run too. And went a little wild running in circles. He got excited and seemed to want to play with Hershey and hump him. Don't remember that he ever tried to do that to Hershey before. Hershey was stiff like a statue and seems scared to engage Kimo now. Can't blame him. Later Hershey went over to the fence on the side and sat down.
I tried to block Kimo from going on top of Hershey and then he started going after me nipping at my heels when I turned away.
(Why do dogs nip at your heels anyway? Herding behavior)
I think getting Kimo in that state is the first step in natural dog training. Or something like that. Just that I don't know how to do the second step in channelling that drive. Gotta read that book one day..
[Monday 6/22, posted 6/24]
Friday, June 12, 2009
Natural Dog
[6/12/09] Noticed that naturaldog has become a follower on twitter. (I had become a follower some weeks before.)
naturaldog is the twitter account of Kevin Behan the author of Natural Dog Training (which I have mentioned before several times in particular with regard to Lee Charles Kelley). He has a website naturaldogtraining.com on which there are several articles.
There's a video of him on youtube from a show called Quantum Canine. There's also a promo video for his website. (Hard to see at the beginning.)
I see there's more episodes of Quantum Canine at the Fact TV Media Gallery.
The video files are in flv format and at first I couldn't figure out how to save them. Keepvid didn't work. But I finally was able to do it in IE using these instructions. Though I had to increase the space allocated to the temporary internet files. I tried uploading to youtube, but the file was too big. They only take video 10 minutes long and these are 30 minutes.
The next problem was how to play it from my computer. Apparently I didn't have any program on my computer that could play flv files. Windows Media Player didn't work. So I tried flvplayer and vlcplayer both among the most popular video players on download.com. I liked vlcplayer better.
***
[5/29/18] Kevin Behan explains how he developed the pushing technique
naturaldog is the twitter account of Kevin Behan the author of Natural Dog Training (which I have mentioned before several times in particular with regard to Lee Charles Kelley). He has a website naturaldogtraining.com on which there are several articles.
There's a video of him on youtube from a show called Quantum Canine. There's also a promo video for his website. (Hard to see at the beginning.)
I see there's more episodes of Quantum Canine at the Fact TV Media Gallery.
The video files are in flv format and at first I couldn't figure out how to save them. Keepvid didn't work. But I finally was able to do it in IE using these instructions. Though I had to increase the space allocated to the temporary internet files. I tried uploading to youtube, but the file was too big. They only take video 10 minutes long and these are 30 minutes.
The next problem was how to play it from my computer. Apparently I didn't have any program on my computer that could play flv files. Windows Media Player didn't work. So I tried flvplayer and vlcplayer both among the most popular video players on download.com. I liked vlcplayer better.
***
[5/29/18] Kevin Behan explains how he developed the pushing technique
Monday, January 26, 2009
Praise as correction
I was revisiting the Lee Charles Kelley blog and see that he has a new site at blogspot. I found this article particularly intriguing. I'll have to study it more carefully but on quick reading dogs (and other animals I suppose) do undesirable actions because they view the event in a negative way. The idea is to change the negative connection of the event. In this case, LCK uses something positive (praise or play) as the event happens and eventually the dog should associate it with something positive. Like when Victoria Stilwell gives treats to dogs to distract them from a negative stimulus. Or something like that.
Friday, May 30, 2008
The Loved Dog (and Cesar and LCK)
I noticed that a link to The Loved Dog is on the page regarding puppy mills on Oprah.com. It seems that Oprah has shifted from Cesar Millan to Tamar Geller.
That Geller disagrees with Cesar is evident on her views on treadmills, choke chains, and alpha rollovers all of whom Cesar makes use of.
I have no quarrel with Geller's methods. But the question I would have is how Tamar would handle the cases where Cesar uses these methods. Or whether she could handle those cases at all. (FWIW, see Lee Charles Kelley review of her book.)
Still the fact that Oprah (whom I regard highly) endorses Geller is something I do not take lightly.
* * *
Surfing some more, I came across this anti-Cesar page from Seattle Dogworks. My summary would be that, even if Cesar's technigues might work for him. It might not work so well when performed by other people and in fact might be detrimental or even dangerous. In other words, do not attempt these techniques without consulting a professional. (Then again, that professional might tell you to kill your dog, so what do you have to lose? OTOH, he might not and have alternative techniques.)
I see they (Cristine Dahl) have a book out called Good Dog 101 with good reviews on Amazon.
Interestingly, I see that the whole staff of Seattle Dogworks are all women. (Not that there's anything wrong with that!)
*** [5/17/10]
I'm considering getting Tamar's book since I see a copy available at paperbackswap.
Looking at a review for the book , I see a recommendation for Brian Kilcommons and Sarah Wilson who wrote Good Owners, Great Dogs which gets good reviews. Maybe I'll add it to my paperbackswap list. The reviewer also likes Dog Talk by John Ross. (So you know he's an old school guy -- Kilcommons worked under Barbara Wodehouse.)
From another review, Outwitting Dogs is recommended (only $5.18 from Amazon).
So maybe I'll look into this too.
There are 104 reviews of Tamar's book. 58 are five-star. 24 are four-star. I'd say that's pretty good. Maybe I'll get the book. After all, she WAS on Oprah.
***
[5/17/10] Another book I see available on paperbackswap (linked on the Amazon Dog Listener page for example, though I'm not positive that where I saw it, maybe it was the paperbackswap Outwitting Dogs page) is How to Behave So Your Dog Behaves by Sophia Yin. It gets good reviews (currently 15 out of 20 five stars, 1 four star, 4 three star) on Amazon but one of the less positive ones is by none other than LCK. Here he actually says that Cesar's techniques are damaging to the dog. (After watching every single episode), that's something I definitely disagree with. But I can see if people misapply them, that could be true. Actually three stars from LCK is pretty good by him.
***
[5/20/10] Tamar Geller on youtube
That Geller disagrees with Cesar is evident on her views on treadmills, choke chains, and alpha rollovers all of whom Cesar makes use of.
I have no quarrel with Geller's methods. But the question I would have is how Tamar would handle the cases where Cesar uses these methods. Or whether she could handle those cases at all. (FWIW, see Lee Charles Kelley review of her book.)
Still the fact that Oprah (whom I regard highly) endorses Geller is something I do not take lightly.
* * *
Surfing some more, I came across this anti-Cesar page from Seattle Dogworks. My summary would be that, even if Cesar's technigues might work for him. It might not work so well when performed by other people and in fact might be detrimental or even dangerous. In other words, do not attempt these techniques without consulting a professional. (Then again, that professional might tell you to kill your dog, so what do you have to lose? OTOH, he might not and have alternative techniques.)
I see they (Cristine Dahl) have a book out called Good Dog 101 with good reviews on Amazon.
Interestingly, I see that the whole staff of Seattle Dogworks are all women. (Not that there's anything wrong with that!)
*** [5/17/10]
I'm considering getting Tamar's book since I see a copy available at paperbackswap.
Looking at a review for the book , I see a recommendation for Brian Kilcommons and Sarah Wilson who wrote Good Owners, Great Dogs which gets good reviews. Maybe I'll add it to my paperbackswap list. The reviewer also likes Dog Talk by John Ross. (So you know he's an old school guy -- Kilcommons worked under Barbara Wodehouse.)
From another review, Outwitting Dogs is recommended (only $5.18 from Amazon).
So maybe I'll look into this too.
There are 104 reviews of Tamar's book. 58 are five-star. 24 are four-star. I'd say that's pretty good. Maybe I'll get the book. After all, she WAS on Oprah.
***
[5/17/10] Another book I see available on paperbackswap (linked on the Amazon Dog Listener page for example, though I'm not positive that where I saw it, maybe it was the paperbackswap Outwitting Dogs page) is How to Behave So Your Dog Behaves by Sophia Yin. It gets good reviews (currently 15 out of 20 five stars, 1 four star, 4 three star) on Amazon but one of the less positive ones is by none other than LCK. Here he actually says that Cesar's techniques are damaging to the dog. (After watching every single episode), that's something I definitely disagree with. But I can see if people misapply them, that could be true. Actually three stars from LCK is pretty good by him.
***
[5/20/10] Tamar Geller on youtube
Friday, May 16, 2008
AllExperts.com
allexperts.com is a place where you can ask questions (and get answers) for "experts" (all volunteers). Here's a list of questions asked on Canine Behavior. The oldest question I see is from 8/19/06. I don't know if that's the first question ever asked or if they delete the older responses (I hope not).
Lee Charles Kelley is one of the experts. The first question I see him answering is from 10/25/07.
Lee Charles Kelley is one of the experts. The first question I see him answering is from 10/25/07.
Saturday, May 3, 2008
Food Fetch
Kimo doesn't know how to fetch. When he was a puppy, I would throw his little rubber tree branch and he would go fetch it. But now that toy is lost, and he doesn't seems to have lost the instinct to fetch.
So what I do now, is throw these tiny bits of vegetarian kibble (I bought this when I was experimenting with food and he didn't seem to like it plus it gave him the runs) and he goes and gets it and comes back for the next one.
Anyway, this works pretty well. But after playing, he gets rambunctious and starts nipping at my heels, or nipping at the bottom of my sweatpants, or jumping on me, or chews on his leash. Things he usually doesn't do. I guess the fetch/play brings the instinct out of him. Which might be good, but I don't know what the next step should be. Maybe I gotta get that Natural Dog Training book.
So what I do now, is throw these tiny bits of vegetarian kibble (I bought this when I was experimenting with food and he didn't seem to like it plus it gave him the runs) and he goes and gets it and comes back for the next one.
Anyway, this works pretty well. But after playing, he gets rambunctious and starts nipping at my heels, or nipping at the bottom of my sweatpants, or jumping on me, or chews on his leash. Things he usually doesn't do. I guess the fetch/play brings the instinct out of him. Which might be good, but I don't know what the next step should be. Maybe I gotta get that Natural Dog Training book.
Monday, April 28, 2008
Calming Signals
Amazon periodically emails me recommended items based on items that I have purchased from them in the past. On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals is one of them (recommended because I bought a used copy of Don't Shoot The Dog).
It gets a lot of enthusiastic reviews. Even Lee Charles Kelley gives it three stars. Three stars from him is like five stars from anybody else. I don't remember him giving any book more than three stars other than Natural Dog Training and Playtraining Your Dog.
I think I do a little of it now. I learned from Cesar to approach from the side rather than from head on. That's what I do with Kimo and how I am sometimes able to get close to Koa when he's loose. Yawning I believe was mentioned by McConnell though she said it could mean one of several things. I don't see it in The Other End of the Leash, so maybe it's in For The Love of a Dog. I notice Kimo often yawns after I call him back after he's been barking from the side of the house and have him sit. I interpret as him trying to relieve his tension. Maybe I should try it myself. Like taking a deep breath.
The author, Turid Rugaas, has a website, and an article called Calming Signals - The Art of Survival. I don't know because I don't have the book. But it sure looks like a lot of the material in the book is in this article. I might get the book for more details. And for the author to get her $1 cut or whatever if I buy the book.
Reading the article, I see that one of the signals is Walking Slowly. I notice this with Keith. If I walk briskly, I notice that Keith tends to bark more. And if I walk slowly and carefully, Keith sometimes doesn't bark at all. Like trying not to trip the motion sensor in the movie Sneakers (one of my favorite movies).
[4/28] Today while doing the slow walk past Keith, I notice that he licked his tongue. I guess that's a good sign. That was the second try. The first try going up, Keith barked and Kimo acted up.
[5/9/08] Here's another article on calming signals
[6/5/20] Lee Charles Kelley with his take (psychobabble?) on calming signals
It gets a lot of enthusiastic reviews. Even Lee Charles Kelley gives it three stars. Three stars from him is like five stars from anybody else. I don't remember him giving any book more than three stars other than Natural Dog Training and Playtraining Your Dog.
I think I do a little of it now. I learned from Cesar to approach from the side rather than from head on. That's what I do with Kimo and how I am sometimes able to get close to Koa when he's loose. Yawning I believe was mentioned by McConnell though she said it could mean one of several things. I don't see it in The Other End of the Leash, so maybe it's in For The Love of a Dog. I notice Kimo often yawns after I call him back after he's been barking from the side of the house and have him sit. I interpret as him trying to relieve his tension. Maybe I should try it myself. Like taking a deep breath.
The author, Turid Rugaas, has a website, and an article called Calming Signals - The Art of Survival. I don't know because I don't have the book. But it sure looks like a lot of the material in the book is in this article. I might get the book for more details. And for the author to get her $1 cut or whatever if I buy the book.
Reading the article, I see that one of the signals is Walking Slowly. I notice this with Keith. If I walk briskly, I notice that Keith tends to bark more. And if I walk slowly and carefully, Keith sometimes doesn't bark at all. Like trying not to trip the motion sensor in the movie Sneakers (one of my favorite movies).
[4/28] Today while doing the slow walk past Keith, I notice that he licked his tongue. I guess that's a good sign. That was the second try. The first try going up, Keith barked and Kimo acted up.
[5/9/08] Here's another article on calming signals
[6/5/20] Lee Charles Kelley with his take (psychobabble?) on calming signals
Wednesday, April 23, 2008
Come
A week ago Thursday, I was reading more on Natural Dog Training and Lee Charles Kelley.
I'm not exactly sure this was the first time I did it. But Kimo was barking around at the side of the house. Usually I would go to the side of the house and carefully edge in front of him to claim his space. But this time I decided to softly tug on the chain and say "come" in a playful voice. And to my surprise, he came.
Later I tried just saying come without tugging and he came (at least it worked a couple of times). Then on the front steps, I just tried going past him and saying come as I walked down the steps and that worked a few times. And when it didn't work, a soft tug on the chain accompanied by the come worked.
Unfortunately this was also the day that he bit me. (As I basked in my first success, I just sat on the cement with him lying down behind me.) I'm not sure but I'm guessing he might have nodded off when he heard the bark and woke up and bit my hand. I'm not sure because I wasn't looking. I guess I need to keep my eye on him at all times especially if he's lying down. It seems he can nod off really quickly. (And get up even quicker :(
[4/25 am - looking through my logs I see that on 4/19, I did the come while he was barking at the fence at the front of the garage. I walked passed him toward the laundry room and told him to come. And he did. I guess that's good.]
I'm not exactly sure this was the first time I did it. But Kimo was barking around at the side of the house. Usually I would go to the side of the house and carefully edge in front of him to claim his space. But this time I decided to softly tug on the chain and say "come" in a playful voice. And to my surprise, he came.
Later I tried just saying come without tugging and he came (at least it worked a couple of times). Then on the front steps, I just tried going past him and saying come as I walked down the steps and that worked a few times. And when it didn't work, a soft tug on the chain accompanied by the come worked.
Unfortunately this was also the day that he bit me. (As I basked in my first success, I just sat on the cement with him lying down behind me.) I'm not sure but I'm guessing he might have nodded off when he heard the bark and woke up and bit my hand. I'm not sure because I wasn't looking. I guess I need to keep my eye on him at all times especially if he's lying down. It seems he can nod off really quickly. (And get up even quicker :(
[4/25 am - looking through my logs I see that on 4/19, I did the come while he was barking at the fence at the front of the garage. I walked passed him toward the laundry room and told him to come. And he did. I guess that's good.]
Monday, April 21, 2008
Lee Charles Kelley vs. Cesar Millan
Like many others, I'm a fan of Cesar Millan. Kelley seems to have respect for Cesar's abilities but believes his philosophy is fundamentally wrong.
For one thing, he says the dominance theory comes from observing wolves in captivity (and scavenging dogs) not behavior in the wild. Well, to me, I would think the dominance theory would still apply to pet dogs since, when you think about it, they actually are in captivity and not in the wild.
And as I read further, there's is a lot of overlap in their methods. In any case, both get good results. (I wish I could obtain a fraction of their success with dog rehabilitaton.) And that's really what counts.
Anyway, while googling, I found this post by Eva in the DogWhispererFans Yahoo group.
DogWhispererFans is actually only the fourth most popular (as counted by number of members) in the Dogs/Training and Obedience category on Yahoo. Number 1 is agbeh (aggressive behaviors in dogs group). I'll be wanting to check this group out.
For one thing, he says the dominance theory comes from observing wolves in captivity (and scavenging dogs) not behavior in the wild. Well, to me, I would think the dominance theory would still apply to pet dogs since, when you think about it, they actually are in captivity and not in the wild.
And as I read further, there's is a lot of overlap in their methods. In any case, both get good results. (I wish I could obtain a fraction of their success with dog rehabilitaton.) And that's really what counts.
Anyway, while googling, I found this post by Eva in the DogWhispererFans Yahoo group.
DogWhispererFans is actually only the fourth most popular (as counted by number of members) in the Dogs/Training and Obedience category on Yahoo. Number 1 is agbeh (aggressive behaviors in dogs group). I'll be wanting to check this group out.
Saturday, April 19, 2008
Lee Charles Kelley's Amazon blog
It's kind of hard to navigate through LCK's amazon blog, so I've started this (orignally lck.htm) table of contents.
4/19/06 - And So It Begins
4/23/06 - What’s so Positive about Positive Training?
4/24/06 - Boomer's First Day, and Today
4/25/06 - Boomer & Malachi Go on a Walk Together
4/26/06 - Guilty Secrets
4/28/06 - The Slower You Go, the Faster You'll Get it Done
4/28/06 - Dougie Throws Me a Ball, Boomer Plays Fetch (a Little, Sort Of)
4/30/06 - Summer in Carroll Gardens, A Visit to Grey Gardens
5/1/06 - What's So Right About Dogs
5/2/06 - The Spoon Game
5/3/06 - Boomer's Progress
5/4/06 - Knowing When to Quit
5/5/06 - To Jump or not To Jump, To Prong or not To Prong
5/6/06 - Lost Post
5/7/06 - Never Scold the Alpha!
4/19/06 - And So It Begins
4/23/06 - What’s so Positive about Positive Training?
4/24/06 - Boomer's First Day, and Today
4/25/06 - Boomer & Malachi Go on a Walk Together
4/26/06 - Guilty Secrets
4/28/06 - The Slower You Go, the Faster You'll Get it Done
4/28/06 - Dougie Throws Me a Ball, Boomer Plays Fetch (a Little, Sort Of)
4/30/06 - Summer in Carroll Gardens, A Visit to Grey Gardens
5/1/06 - What's So Right About Dogs
5/2/06 - The Spoon Game
5/3/06 - Boomer's Progress
5/4/06 - Knowing When to Quit
5/5/06 - To Jump or not To Jump, To Prong or not To Prong
5/6/06 - Lost Post
5/7/06 - Never Scold the Alpha!
bit again
I'm starting this blog after getting bitten by Kimo again. This time it was something new. I was sitting down with him (not looking at him) on the back slab. Then he heard Keith bark, went wild and went after my hand. I'd rate this the third worst bite after the first bite when he bit me on the front steps when I was reading the paper and he woke up. That about ties with the time he claimed a kleenex and took it to his area in the back (near the air conditioning unit) and I tried to take it away with my foot while he was growling. The first two I went to the doctor and got anti-biotics. This time, I think (I hope) I can get away without going to the doctors. It doesn't look that swollen. To me, anyway.
The fourth worst was a couple of weeks ago when I was on the front steps and he was on the landing just below me. He must have dozed off and when he awoke he went after my arm. Luckily most of the attack was blunted by my sweatshirt. (This sounds like I'm in denial at the dangerous behavior. Maybe I am.)
One thing I did this time was kind of moaned and said ow after he bit me. I don't know if that did anything. But he did seem to look remorseful. He even licked my wound later on. I let him lick my back of my hand earlier and today I let him lick the heel of my hand (which has the heavier wounds).
I've been reading the reviews and blog entries of Lee Charles Kelley. Something new I tried (I think I started just before I got bitten, but I don't think there's a connection) was to try calling him with a playful voice to come. It seems to work when he's barking in the back with his head around the corner of the house (he can just reach with the leash and chain (not really a chain) on. I also tried it today when he was barking at the fence in the garage. I walked past him while and said come as I walked to the back of the garage. And he came.
Today after feeding him (he didn't eat all), he nipped at my heels and jumped on me as I was leaving. So I gave him a toy to play with (the gift from Hershey). And he played with it for quite a while whereas in the past he generally ignored it. Except for the times, I would hide food under its feet and he would tip it over.
I don't know if this is related (maybe partly), but I tried a little of the feed and push technques as expained by Lee Charles Kelley and Neil Sattin. I would be rubbing his chest as I fed him and gave very slight pressure. If I gave too much pressure, then he wouldn't eat. Maybe he doesn't like the food THAT much.
He was barking on the landing just now and I tried to get him to come. I had to tug slightly at the leash and encourage him and he eventually came. Though it's early, (8:26 PM) as I write this, I gave him his favorite pillow with a blanket on top. He growls as he arranges the blanket with his foot. And I don't know why. He does the same thing with the towel in his doghouse. And actually he kind of does the same thing with the pillow itself. Maybe he's trying to dig into it like he does with dirt?
He just now was barking at the landing and I walked quickly past him down the steps and said come. And he followed me. I doubt that it would work if he's barking fiercely at a dog or big truck though. But I guess it's a start.
The fourth worst was a couple of weeks ago when I was on the front steps and he was on the landing just below me. He must have dozed off and when he awoke he went after my arm. Luckily most of the attack was blunted by my sweatshirt. (This sounds like I'm in denial at the dangerous behavior. Maybe I am.)
One thing I did this time was kind of moaned and said ow after he bit me. I don't know if that did anything. But he did seem to look remorseful. He even licked my wound later on. I let him lick my back of my hand earlier and today I let him lick the heel of my hand (which has the heavier wounds).
I've been reading the reviews and blog entries of Lee Charles Kelley. Something new I tried (I think I started just before I got bitten, but I don't think there's a connection) was to try calling him with a playful voice to come. It seems to work when he's barking in the back with his head around the corner of the house (he can just reach with the leash and chain (not really a chain) on. I also tried it today when he was barking at the fence in the garage. I walked past him while and said come as I walked to the back of the garage. And he came.
Today after feeding him (he didn't eat all), he nipped at my heels and jumped on me as I was leaving. So I gave him a toy to play with (the gift from Hershey). And he played with it for quite a while whereas in the past he generally ignored it. Except for the times, I would hide food under its feet and he would tip it over.
I don't know if this is related (maybe partly), but I tried a little of the feed and push technques as expained by Lee Charles Kelley and Neil Sattin. I would be rubbing his chest as I fed him and gave very slight pressure. If I gave too much pressure, then he wouldn't eat. Maybe he doesn't like the food THAT much.
He was barking on the landing just now and I tried to get him to come. I had to tug slightly at the leash and encourage him and he eventually came. Though it's early, (8:26 PM) as I write this, I gave him his favorite pillow with a blanket on top. He growls as he arranges the blanket with his foot. And I don't know why. He does the same thing with the towel in his doghouse. And actually he kind of does the same thing with the pillow itself. Maybe he's trying to dig into it like he does with dirt?
He just now was barking at the landing and I walked quickly past him down the steps and said come. And he followed me. I doubt that it would work if he's barking fiercely at a dog or big truck though. But I guess it's a start.
Tuesday, May 1, 2007
The Loved Dog
[5/1/07] Is Oprah abandoning Cesar? In a recent show, Tamar Geller was a guest, demonstrating a kinder and gentler way to having dogs behave.
* * *
Tamar Geller, a former Israeli intelligence officer who became a dog trainer to the stars, says the most important thing animal lovers can do for their dogs is to "empower them."
Geller, who calls herself a "life coach for dogs," offers her philosophy and specific tips for pet owners in her just-published book, The Loved Dog: The Playful, Non-aggressive Way to Teach Your Dog Good Behavior (Simon Spotlight Entertainment, $24.95).
"I'm completely against the notion of having your dog be submissive to you," she says. "There's a difference between submissive and well mannered. I want them to be empowered and well mannered."
* * *
More dog books while browsing
The Power of Positive Dog Training
[5/2 - see also tamikat's list of Positive Dog Training Books]
and then from a review of above
Playtraining Your Dog
Natural Dog Training by Kevin Behan
In fact, the reviewer is a guy named Lee Charles Kelley who is an author that also trains dogs. His method is based on Behan. Naturally enough, he thinks highly of Behan's book calling it "the best book every written about dogs". On his site, he calls into question the alpha theory and instead favors emergence theory. (He admittedly stands alone in applying it to dog behaviour.)
[transplanted from original blog, 1/26/09]
[7/31/17] a recent article on Tamar Geller [via an email from twitter]
* * *
Tamar Geller, a former Israeli intelligence officer who became a dog trainer to the stars, says the most important thing animal lovers can do for their dogs is to "empower them."
Geller, who calls herself a "life coach for dogs," offers her philosophy and specific tips for pet owners in her just-published book, The Loved Dog: The Playful, Non-aggressive Way to Teach Your Dog Good Behavior (Simon Spotlight Entertainment, $24.95).
"I'm completely against the notion of having your dog be submissive to you," she says. "There's a difference between submissive and well mannered. I want them to be empowered and well mannered."
* * *
More dog books while browsing
The Power of Positive Dog Training
[5/2 - see also tamikat's list of Positive Dog Training Books]
and then from a review of above
Playtraining Your Dog
Natural Dog Training by Kevin Behan
In fact, the reviewer is a guy named Lee Charles Kelley who is an author that also trains dogs. His method is based on Behan. Naturally enough, he thinks highly of Behan's book calling it "the best book every written about dogs". On his site, he calls into question the alpha theory and instead favors emergence theory. (He admittedly stands alone in applying it to dog behaviour.)
[transplanted from original blog, 1/26/09]
[7/31/17] a recent article on Tamar Geller [via an email from twitter]
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