The Dog Talk Diva

I was googling Jeff Gellman (mentioned in dwf, an interesting dog trainer in his own right) and came across this radio interview he had with Camilla Gray-Nelson who is the Dog Talk Diva..

Well, I'll tell you, when I was growing up, because I was raised on a ranch that was miles out of town -- all my other little friends in school had girlfriends and kids that they played with on the weekends and after school in their cul-de-sacs and their suburban homes -- I didn't have any of that. When I was small, it was a little bit disappointing to me. I always tell people, you know, I didn't have any friends with two legs until I was in junior high. But, the advantage of that looking back now, because everything I do in the dog world in training, is based on how animals communicate naturally with each other. And if I didn't have that background, I wouldn't know that language; I would be oblivious to it, just as all of my clients are and most of the world is.

Jeff: It's incredible. So give me an example. Because I like to -- you know, I'm a different kind of trainer, and I don't know if we're going to go too deep into actual training. Because I want people to think bigger than that. I want people to look at the holistic message here. What is something that is so common in the dog world, or even the animal world -- we're talking about pack animals -- that we're missing, the general population is missing, they're missing the boat on it.

Camilla: I'll tell you right up front what it is: It is somehow the perception that to be seen as strong with your dog, or to get your dog to do what you want them to do, you have to be loud, you have to be intimidating, you have to be full of machismo and pin your dog to the ground. And I am telling you, as a student of nature for over 50 years, that is so backwards and wrong. When you look at a -- from my early experience, my herd of cows, my horses -- keep in mind, social group mammals, social mammals -- cows, horses, dogs, and what have you, are the ones I'm most familiar with . They all follow the same social contract -- there's a leader, there are the followers, there are the ones that work in the basement, there's middle-management, and there's the executive. I'm getting off track, but I'm still on track.

Jeff: No, don't worry, I'll reign you in.

Camilla: When you look at the animals that are the leaders in that group, they are not the loud ones -- they are the quiet ones. They are the ones that are off on the side, sort of. They're humored by the one doing all the barking or all the lunging or all the kicking -- they're going, go knock yourself out, I'll just come in and clean up your mess later. And so, the secret of power in the animal world is that quietness; when there's a dog that's doing the lunging and the barking and snapping, and all of this, acting very, very aggressive -- what they're really doing is they're overcompensating for a lack of confidence and power inside. They are not unlike the play yard bully at the local grammar school. And the thing is, the dogs know it. So when we yell at our dogs, and we try to force them into doing things overtly like this, the dog looks at us and goes -- you're the imposter, I'm not going to listen to you. So that's the biggest misperception is that strength is not loud, it's quiet.

Jeff: So Camilla, do you think it's possible that if folks feel that if they discipline, which doesn't mean punishment, and in my book, there's a big difference.

Camilla: I hate that word.

Jeff: I know, there's a big difference. So if they discipline… You know, everybody needs -- I mean, I get discipline. You know, everybody gets disciplined.

Camilla: Discipline your children.

Jeff: Yes, of course. So are people afraid -- because I get this feeling as well (90% of my clients are female as well) -- if you discipline your dog, they feel that the dog is not going to like them. I find it the opposite.

Camilla: That's exactly it.

Jeff: I find it the opposite. I find, no, if I discipline and set up boundaries, my dog loves it because then they've got expectations.

Camilla: Well, the dog loves it, because they finally have the leader they have been looking for.

Camilla: Okay. In the dog world, I spend a lot of time telling people, explaining how that leader gets his position. It's not because he wears a t-shirt saying, I'm the boss of you. And it's not because there's fighting. Everyone assumes that the top position in the dog pack is earned through a bloody battle.

Jeff: No. It's just through energy, mostly.

Camilla: That hierarchy involves aggression -- and that is at the root. Honestly that is the root of all the great dog trainer divider -- the faulty assumption that aggression and dominance are inexplicably (oh sorry, another big word) are linked. But unless a dog realizes how his world is organized, he is in a constant state of anxiety. Because in his world, unless you've got a well-organized pack with the right guy at the top, the right dogs working in the mail room and the right dogs in middle-management, so everyone has a job to do -- that pack, including the dog in it, are at risk. They will not survive. So the first thing a dog looks for in life is, okay, how are we organized? Who's the chairman? And what's my job? Once you answer that question, they calm down. And what you see from a dog when you set those boundaries -- and I'll tell you how they get that leader position -- but once you set boundaries, the dog has almost an audible sigh of relief. You've seen it, Jeff, you see it every day with your dogs.

Jeff: Yeah.

Camilla: And when they look up at you, you have attention that is real, honest, organic attention. And it's really like hero worship -- that's when you have the look of love in your dog's eyes, because he is saying -- oh, finally, you've lifted the burden of life from my shoulders, I can defer to you.

Note: the whole radio show and complete transcript can be found here.